Shaking up the loot system
Moving into Cataclysm, I laid out a multi-point plan for the guild and the next expansion pack. Steps I would take to improve access to the guild bank while maintaining security, steps to ease raider access to flasks and other important raiding items, a new guild site with expanded functionality (that I’m currently working on), and–perhaps most controversially–looking at a new loot system.
The current bid/DKP system has been in place since May 2009. Considering the previous loot system (rolls) went through three revisions over the six or so months we used it in Naxx, it’s pretty impressive we stuck with the DKP system for as long as we did. And with no real drama to boot.
So why do I want to ditch it? Well, while DKP works well on the surface, there are a lot of macro issues that have been piling up that are exposing how unfair a bid/DKP system can be over a period of time. And it’s my personal opinion that the fundamental unfairness of the system is hurting the raid in a very subtle way.
Consider, as an example, the holy paladin. No other class or spec uses spell plate, so when you run with one holy paladin (as we did for so long), you have a raider that is essentially getting all their chest, legs, shoulders, belt, gloves, wrists, etc., gear for 1 DKP. (Lacking fixed prices was a huge error in hindsight.) So, anyway, this hypothetical holy pally can turn around and then run the table on necks, weapons, shields, tier pieces, and so on, because they’ll naturally have a larger DKP pool than others.
(Sidenote: I’m using a holy paladin as just an example since they’re the most obvious example of someone who can unintentionally benefit from bid/DKP. I don’t mean to cast aspersions at any real holy paladins participating in any real bid/DKP systems.)
What kind of opened my eyes to the severity of this situation was last week in raid when a few folks were talking about their four piece heroic tier gear, and other folks didn’t have any. And all those folks that didn’t have a single heroic tier piece were the ones with the most gear competition.
There are other intricacies of the system that I want to quash. Like how it allows hoarding, which I hate with a fiery passion. If there’s one rule I can make stick in Cataclysm, it’s that people will be severely penalized for waiting for a piece that might never drop while passing on upgrades that are there and available.
Long story short: the current system is operative, but it’s broken at a deep level. And it needs to go.
So where do we go from here? We had a meeting last night exploring EP/GP and doing a dry run of Naxx10 with the addon to see how to worked. And I think it went pretty well. People seem to be gelling to what I’m selling and share my concern for the unfairness of bid/DKP. The next step seems to be to introduce it to the guild, explain the ins and outs, and so on. In a sense, this post is the first salvo in that discussion, since many of my guildmates read this space. I’ll be posting a detailed FAQ on the forums and hold a Q&A session to talk about EP/GP as we get closer to raiding in Cataclysm.
For the time we’ll continue with DKP, until December 7th. But after that I will gladly bury our old friend, with little ceremony for (hopefully) something better.
@Rilgon
2 November 2010 at 1:39 pm #
Zero-sum, fixed-price DKP. Do it yesterday.
Basically, every item is worth X (a heroic item is worth X*2), and the item is given to the person with the most DKP who expresses interest (ties broken by percentage of attendance in the last 30 days, then 90 days, then lifetime). The DKP from that item is then split between all parties present.
Ridiculously fair if all raids are on the same page (i.e. going and doing heroic 10-mans to gear up and not having to take 25-man loot undermines this).
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I can personally vouch for EP/GP’s awesomeness as a loot system. We used it in my previous guild at both a 10 and 25-man level, and I’m in the midst of introducing it to my new guild. The built-in decay discourages point hoarding, the problem of ‘alts’ getting gear over ‘mains’ can be solved easily (in that your priority can be assigned per-person, not just per-character), and – my favorite – it recognizes contributions to the raid for things besides showing up and killing internet dragons, such as loading the guild bank with flasks or bringing the food.
The fact that it’s managed with just a couple (well-done) addons doesn’t hurt, of course. :) Glad to see another potential EP/GP user!
@Rhidach
3 November 2010 at 9:33 am #
Excellent, this fills me with hope, thanks Stop!
Though you seem to be moving already, one of the systems that one of the guilds I am part of uses is you spend 1/2 of your DKP, no matter what when you buy a piece of gear. I was in a smaller guild prior that worked through EP/GP and it seemed to work well enough, though you’ll want someone competent to be caring for the upkeep, though those lessons learned from running a DKP system are applicable.
@HanaMoonfire
2 November 2010 at 1:46 pm #
When I was in a 25-man guild we used EPGP. While the decay is nice, you’ll still get a certain degree of hording. Just be aware the phenomenon won’t go away entirely. People will still save and avoid spending just in case that one item they want drops.
We had a spriest who (quite smartly) got himself decked out in non-tier gear by paying the Greed/Off-spec prices on EPGP because of all the people who were passing so they could save for tier pieces.
I did like EPGP (except when it broke regarding tokens in ToC), because it was so automated. But like any system it has its flaws. Just need to be aware of them.
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@Rhidach
2 November 2010 at 2:04 pm #
Do you know where I can find a list of such weaknesses with EP/GP? I’d like to stay ahead of any possibilities of abuse.
@Orthien
2 November 2010 at 2:18 pm #
There is a decent write up on EPGP on WoWwiki at http://www.wowwiki.com/EPGP that goes over some of the downsides.
I’m sure there are a few bloggers that have gone over them to but those would take some digging from outside of work.
I think there’s been one on World of Matticus but I’m not sure.
Orthien’s last blog ..Disapointment and Dances
@Rhidach
3 November 2010 at 9:35 am #
I’ll seek those out, thanks man.
“We had a spriest who (quite smartly) got himself decked out in non-tier gear by paying the Greed/Off-spec prices on EPGP because of all the people who were passing so they could save for tier pieces.”
The flaw there is not in the EPGP system, but in the implementation. If a person takes gear that will be used for *any* spec, they should get the full GP for it, even if they have no competition. Giving discounted prices promotes the inequities that you pointed out.
We have used EPGP for the entire Wrath cycle, and we really like it. Hoarding is somewhat possible, but not to the degree that it is with DKP.
Example: we had one person come to our casual guild from a hardcore guild. She was in full ICC 25 gear when we were still working out way through Lower ICC. She went the first 10-15 weeks of raiding without taking a single piece of loot. Yes, her EPGP ratio was very very high.
When she finally took one piece of gear she was still at the top of the list. But when she eventually took her second piece, she fell to 5th. The decay assures that you cannot hoard endlessly.
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@katmandu
2 November 2010 at 1:57 pm #
Out of curiosity, how do the casual 10man groups handle loot? The ones I’ve been in – even in guilds that use DKP, tend to only work with DKP when they’re official – would you roll with EPGP guild-wide?
@Rhidach
2 November 2010 at 2:00 pm #
We just roll for the loot. Of course, that’s in a world where 10s drop lesser loot than 25s (aside some well-itemized exceptions). EPGP would stay just for guild 25s, because I don’t want to penalize people who can make the “main event” (the 25s) and can’t make the 10s.
Isn’t this less of an issue in Cataclysm, with the shared 10/25 raid lockout? There’ll probably be fewer ‘unofficial’ raids, but at the same time you might have to deal with the possibility that you split an existing raid ID into several 10s.
Great read though, sounds like an interesting loot system. I’m trying to figure out what the negatives are!
@Orthien
2 November 2010 at 2:05 pm #
I personally run EPGP for our guild since I took control and its generally run rather well. One thing I make sure to do to keep things fair and help against hording is to charge for OS even if its half or a third or something. Also charging double for 2handers etc although the addons should do that themselves.
One thing I like to run as a precaution is the ability of officers to over write the EPGP in extreme circumstances.
For example we had 2 Holy Pallys in 25man one week, one that came every week and was always working hard for the guild and the other that came to raids very seldom. When the SP shield from Marrowgarr dropped they were the only two that rolled and not having brought gear in a while due to lack of attendance the 2nd Pally won. However that Pally was running with a ToC25 shield and our dedicated Pally had one from Ulduar 10 still so we awarded it to him instead. The 2nd Pally then had a tanty and quit proving we did right by the guild.
The one downside to EPGP is you have to give up the use of you Officer note if you use it as that’s where it keeps its info.
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@Anafielle
2 November 2010 at 2:06 pm #
To be fair, a ton of the 4pc / 1 pc debacle comes from the ridiculous, ridicuous RNG we have had with drop rates. And you know how much I despise RNG-based arguments, so it’s really, really bad if I’m blaming RNG. The pally token has dropped AT LEAST 50% of the time, if not more. I don’t know why, but we really got fucked with RNG on tier. Maybe I’m just telling myself this to make me feel better about having 4pc tier.
That being said, every point raised is true. I benefit from it, as a tank, and I have felt terrible getting key, core items of loot for nothing and then wiping the floor when it comes to tier pieces.
I’m glad the system is changing. I’m looking forward to seeing what it will turn into in the future.
Many moons ago a guild I participated with wanted to shift from a loot council to some form of currency system (ZeroSum, DKP, or EPGP). There was such a fissure within the guild that a few key players left and consequently ended the progression of the guild. However in the discussion there were some good home grown systems (though if you’re looking for add-on support, it doesn’t exist).
My favorite was a Hybrid Council Points system (HCP). Basically raiders would earn points similar to a DKP system and use them to start their bid, but then the council (about 6 strong at the time) would assign their own arbitrary values and ranks based on raid performance, time since last loot, and synergy with the group (who wants to give the butt of the group loot of he just caused problems). Included in the system was points decay so that hoarding points wasn’t possible. We got so far as developing the complex excel spreadsheet to track all the points, but the end was nigh.
EPGP was the favored system, only second to keeping the loot council system we alread had.
My old raid was an alliance setup with 2 guilds + other regulars. I would have loved to move to EPGP but the upkeep without the addon would have caused too much overhead.
We ended up going with a Points for Priority system with no decay. ‘DKP’ is awarded. Main spec gear would cost half your points. The winner of the loot was by priority in point total, so the player with the highest total had outright first refusal. Ties would go to rolls. Off spec and other items would go to random rolls and pay 10 points. While it did encourage hoarding, the top priority players were able to exercise privilege only a couple times or rarely before being passed up by others.
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Loot council.
Every system has unfairness to it. Every system can be gamed. As good leaders, you and your officers should be capable of instilling confidence in your raiders that you will make equitable decisions and will do what you can to fix bad decisions. Every one of your raiders should be capable of accepting that mistakes happen. None of them should be so hung up on loot that they will have more than a few moments of aggravation and carry a grudge. Any who would should not be on the raid team.
When a piece drops, take interest requests from people, consider what person getting it will benefit the raiding team most and give it to that person. If you can only narrow it down to 2 or 3, let the 2 or 3 roll. If you are tuned enough into the gearing of your raiders, class requirements and recent loot distribution, this should almost never happen. Downing bosses and having fun is the goal, not getting loot. Make sure your raiders buy into this concept before you go raid. Kick any who don’t and recruit those who do. Do not tolerate “loot-whores” in the raiding team.
This, and substantially similar arrangements, are the only ones that I’ve seen be stable over years of raiding. In the few cases where the team was new, one by one, raiders were admitted to the loot council for a week and put in charge of loot distribution. After that there was never heard a complaint from those people.
Jason. The problem with loot council systems, is that while they are theoretically ideal for distributing loot, they don’t reward attendance, they reward being in the raid.
Someone who shows up without getting a raid spot is equally penalised in terms of not getting loot as someone who doesn’t bother to show up at all.
Sure, you can say “well the loot council will take recent attendance into account when making their decisions” but that sort of thing can be quite hard to quantify and can be hard for the average raider to see. More than anything, your loot system needs to be transparent, or the trust you talk about cannot form.
In a point system, if you award points for attendance, thats a concrete benefit to someone. If they don’t get a raid spot, that at least tells them that they are getting some reward for doing the right thing. Otherwise people start to get resentful if they miss out on raid spots and you’ll find that, unless your core is small, this causes you problems.
@Rhidach
3 November 2010 at 9:44 am #
That’s my primary concern with Loot Council, that the wheels behind it are so invisible. I don’t think I could ever enact such a system because if I was on the receiving end of it, I’d be very suspicious of how the decision making process works, and I don’t like the idea of my raiders having to feel that way about the mechanisms that assign them loot.
In practice, I have seen that trust form. It does depend on mature leaders and mature raiders, though. Further, for this to work try to find people for whom playing the game, downing bosses and having fun are the reward, not loot, so people tend not to so butt-hurt over loot distribution. As for attendance, why are you letting raiders stay on the team who do not meet attendance requirements?
Anyway, I love our raids and our raiders who far more times than not are generously suggesting a piece go to a lesser geared person even when they could use it.
Any gear distribution system works, with buy-in.
No gear distribution system works, without buy-in.
We run loot council, it works very well for us, but I can see it being undesirable for many guilds.
@Rhi: To some degree, every system will have problems. Pick which problems you can tolerate most, and find the system that solves the rest of your issues.
@Rhidach
3 November 2010 at 9:47 am #
Very true, Mel. That’s the approach I’m taking to EP/GP–how it solves my big concerns with our current system. I’m not sure of the downsides yet, but based on the comments here and what I’ve seen elsewhere, I think it’ll work out.
The system we use is called RAP (Raid Attendance Points) and is essentially EPGP.
You get 2 RAP for every night you are either in a raid or available to be in a raid. Bonus RAP can be given at officer discretion, and RAP can be deducted at their discretion.
The minimum cost for an item is 4 RAP, while the maximum is 12. Anytime you take an item you spend all your RAP. If you have less than four, you spend four and can go into negative. If you have more than 12, you only spend 12.
Pros of the system
-Hoarding is discouraged as it means each item is exponentially more expensive than it could be
-Inflation is kept under control
-There is no bidding, the person to win it is the person with the most RAP.
Cons of the system
-You need to be very firm with people about taking upgrades when they are upgrades, because spending all your RAP on a tiny upgrade is not something people generally want. Usually this is achieved by the raid leader (me) being well-versed in what loot is good for everyone in the raid and knowing when things are upgrades for people. If someone refuses a piece of loot and can’t give me a convincing reason why it isn’t an upgrade for them, I give them the item anyway and charge them double RAP for it for attempting to game the system.
-RAP becomes mostly irrelevant for people with not much gear competition, like tanks. Though this i an inherent fact of having low gear competition.
At the end of the day the cons of RAP/EPGP systems are not that bad compared to most other systems.
The only real thing you have to do is not put up with bullshit from your raiders. If someone is trying to be a cheat by passing on loot until it goes to Greed, make them pay double for it when they take it for mainspec.
If someone is trying to game the system by hoarding points passing completely on upgrades and spending it all on one upgrade, force them to take the item and pay double for it.
@Anafielle
3 November 2010 at 3:36 pm #
“If someone refuses a piece of loot and can’t give me a convincing reason why it isn’t an upgrade for them, I give them the item anyway and charge them double RAP for it for attempting to game the system.”
Rofl. Can we do this?!
The solution is that no gear goes to greed. That is a holdover from old DKP systems.
In our EPGP – which works wonderfully – if you take the gear you get the full GP. If no one takes the gear, its disenchanted. End of story.
People who have been in years of DKP systems tend to shy away from taking small upgrades. After a short while in EPGP that reservation goes away. You’ll see that there is pretty rapid turnover in the EPGP ranks. If you take an upgrade, it won’t be too long before your EP/GP has you back in line for another upgrade.
My guild has almost zero point hoarding. There is no Greed/Off-Spec discount at all, and I think that’s important.
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@Anafielle
4 November 2010 at 8:34 am #
Wow, full price for offspec loot? Perhaps I just don’t understand EPGP enough yet…. I am sure it is fair, but explain it to me :x
Doesn’t it really hurt people who have to maintain two raiding specs for the sake of the raid? We have four-five people are pretty much expected by us to have worthwhile raiding offspecs. They’re not the only ones who pick up offspec gear, but they are the ones who the raid needs to have it.
Doesn’t charging them full price for offspec gear really penalize them for picking up two sets? Doesn’t it mean they won’t gear their offspecs at the start of a patch cycle when all new gear is at a premium? I sure wouldn’t.
How does your system handle this? I’m curious!
My guild uses EP/GP and has kept loot drama really minimal if it existed at all. I think the system works well. Essentially you get out of the guild what you put into it. Players get rewarded for supplying food, flask,and other items.
To your question, our guild does full price for MS gear and 10% of the MS cost for Off spec. Which helps with not crushing someones PR(priority) for taking an off spec upgrade while they are also not getting the item for free so to speak. And players with no competition for the loot (i.e. me as a tank) have no choice but to pick main spec for tank gear that is an upgrade/sidegrade/ittybitty grade and get charged full price so there is no letting it fall to off spec to get it cheaper. We also have a threshold for new raider recruits that requires a minimum amount of Effort Points to even bid on loot(unless its being DE’d of course) which usually took around 3 raids to hit helps with guild hoppers and not letting your veterans get outbid on a piece they’ve been waiting for. Once new players hit the required threshold they usually shoot to the top in priority but fall in line after they take their first piece. Hope this helped some I feel like I rambled a bit.
“Wow, full price for offspec loot? Perhaps I just don’t understand EPGP enough yet…. I am sure it is fair, but explain it to me :x”
In the EP/GP system, if you are running current content where gear is actually being taken, the churn in the rankings is pretty quick. If I get two gear upgrades in a run, I fall low in the priority, but it won’t be too long before I’m back near the top.
Sure, there might be someone who won’t take an off spec piece, but its very, very rare. Maybe we’re just fortunate to have a guild culture where people aren’t trying to game the system.
The real reason, though, is the decay. If you hoard your points, they become less valuable with time. Its definitely in your best interest to get loot upgrades when you can get them, because the longer you go without getting one, the less your EP gets you when you finally take gear.
If you set your decay rate high, then people will have a big incentive to take upgrades when they are available. If you set them too high, though, then the RNG can be a frustration, when you go a few weeks without seeing any drops that you can use.
To me, though, the whole idea of “price” and “bid” is part of an antiquated DKP mentality. If you’ve played for a long time in those systems, then its embedded in your brain and its hard to get rid of it. Gear is gear, and shards are valuable too.
I can imagine that our system would work with reduced cost of off-spec items. However, allowing reduced cost for “greed” items is almost always a fatal flaw in any loot system. It creates inequities that always lead to drama.
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[...] distribution systems I decided that I should ring in on the subject. I was reading Rhidach’s post where he mentioned that he was thinking about trying EPGP and since I ran this system in my last [...]