How to spice up tankadin threat in Cataclysm
So it goes without saying that Paladin threat generation as it stands now is, shall we say, fairly straightforward. Unassuming. Non-pretentious. Some might go so far as to describe it as faceroll.
Indeed, some of us might treat the ease of the Paladin rotation the same way we treat that no-good uncle of ours who’s had one too many run-ins with the local constabulary. Around the family dinner table you might joke about what an idiot he is, but you’ll invariably flip out on a neighbor that’s gossiping about him like some clucking hen. No one makes fun of family except for family, right?
Well, let’s pretend this is the familial dinner table. We need to talk about Uncle Faceroll.
One of the biggest problems with Paladin tanking in general is how automated and streamlined it is. The whole process requires minimal input compared to other classes. Oh sure, we have a wide range of buttons to press, but there’s something version wrong when you can bind that whole rotation to two macros. Our second “cooldown” kicks in automatically, our AP debuff is applied automatically, our attack speed debuff is tacked on to an ability we already use. In short, our tanking style requires significantly less input than other classes.
Take warriors (please! har har har) for example. They have a “counterattack” ability, a proc that can change the priority of their rotation, an “on next swing” attack, and have to actively keep up both debuffs. Druids have a dot they have to stack and actively keep up on a boss and an on-next-swing, among other things. DKs have two diseases they need to keep up on a target at all times and a counterattack. Conversely, we have a straight rotation, as immutable and immovable as a glacier.
Here’s what I think should change:
1. Change Holy Vengeance to a separate ability that applies the dot, independent of what Seal you have up. The attack applying the dot will be low threat, and having five stacks will be mandatory to maintaining proper threat on a boss. Because the ability applying a stack will be so low threat, you will be discouraged from allowing clipping your stacks. Seal of Vengeance can still do damage as a proc based on how many stacks you have up.
2. Redoubt is undoubtedly changing in Cataclysm with the shuffle being given to block. Perhaps retool the talent to be a clone of Sword and Board. When you block an attack you have a x% change to proc a free, immediate Shield of Righteousness.
3. Holy Shield is also probably getting an overhaul as well, and with much less consistent blocking probably would be as tps-heavy as it is right now. As such, retool the ability so that when you dodge/parry/miss an attack, you can hit Holy Shield and you’ll immediately respond with a “holy bitch slap with my shield” ala Revenge or Rune Strike. This might be a tad redundant with ShoR already existing, so maybe just make a new counterattack ability for Paladins.
Yes, I’m advocating homogeneity
I know that’s such a dirty word in the community, but honestly it’s the only way I can see to fix this impasse. The 4 kinds of attacks tanks in this game have (generally) are instant, on next swing, counterattack, and a dot application. Certain tanks have abilities that fall under those categories, or maybe dance on the border between them.
All our attacks are instant, with one leaving a puddle of dots on the floor, and one adding a dot to our attacks… automatically.
This is what heterogeneity has gotten us? We’re the “faceroll” tank class, for good or ill, and if that’s our special flavor, I’d rather them make us a little more vanilla.
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The only problem with rune strike and/or heroic strike is the devs have been telling us for a while that on next swing abilities lack the sophistication they hope for. I’m curious to see the holy shield changes. With an 80 blood dk and my new quest to level a warrior, I just would like to sayin next swing abilities REALLY suck.
@Rhidach
26 March 2010 at 1:50 pm #
@Rhabella: I don’t like on-next-swings either, which I why I didn’t agitate for them in my list. I meant to acknowledge their existence to point out the different degrees of attacks that other classes enjoy (or not, in this case) to make the blandness of our own threat toolbox stand out even more. I agree, they suck, will probably die off, and that’s a good thing.
@Kael: I don’t think a more complex toolbox of attacks would preclude us from being able to throw out Hand spells any more than we do now. How much time in a boss fight do you spend on “utility”? It’s probably around 1% of the duration for me, and I run the gamut from Divine Sacrificing, to tossing out Hands of Sacrifice, to watching for Hands of Salvation, and even the occasional BoP.
I also would dispute that watching a dot stack isn’t that difficult, you can get an addon like NeedToKnow to track the duration. I’m not asking for our tanking to get incredibly difficult, but just to add some much needed sophistication to it. I see where you’re coming from, but if you think that would water down our class, then this is my turn to respectfully disagree.
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Primarily because I detest the idea of being the same as every other tank class. I’m completely against homogeneity. If I wanted to play a warrior, I would roll a warrior.
I don’t bind my main abilities to two macros, I have them separate and I use them individually. That could be a good start to feeling like you are doing more. Also consider the vast utility we bring into the fray. We have so many other things we bring into the raid in terms of function that would be lost if our threat rotation were too much more complex than it is now. More time required checking debuff stacks means less time watching that huntard thats going to need an HoS after the next GCD, or throwing a DP at the squishy mage that didn’t get the inoculation stacks he should have.
If you feel like you’re faceroll, then simply do more. Healers having trouble keeping up on a fight? Not having any issues with your threat? Cleanse more. A GCD you save your healers having to dispell is a GCD they can instead cast an actual heal. You could save lives by making better use of the wide range of abilities you have at your disposal.
@sabedoriaclark
26 March 2010 at 2:46 pm #
I’m voting against homogeneity as well. Although Paladins are doing well atm I think the rumors of our supremacy are greatly exaggerated. For the entire life of the game Warriors have been strongly viable (usually the most viable). In WotLK it has bounced back and forth a bit with only Druids consistently being toward the bottom of the heap. Everything is changing so much with Cataclysm anyway that Paladin supremacy is likely a brief, delicious moment in WoW history.
As for your specific comments – I LIKE rotations. I hate specs that use a priority system. You could say that a strict rotation discourages spur of the moment choices which spice things up, but there is usually very little choice in a priority system. It’s just use whichever ability that is highest priority that is off cool-down. Rotations require coordination. They have a rhythm. It makes a boss fight more like a dance and less like a jerky random sputtering affair.
@Rhidach: I don’t know that I would use the phrase ‘water down,’ but perhaps over-complicate? I just really enjoy the idea of each tank being very different save for the core necessities, and thus having different scenarios where each is clearly superior.
The day I become a carbon copy of warriors/druids/DKs is likely the day I quit playing, at least my paladin.
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@Anafielle
26 March 2010 at 5:47 pm #
I’m not sure how anyone thinks it’s homogenizing to add interesting ideas to the Paladin toolbox. While I don’t think anyone with a brain can actually play their pally with their 9699 macro’d to two buttons, the point remains that we have very
If DKs and Shammies both have dots to watch, does that make them the same?
If Warriors and DKs both have reflexive abilities, does that make THEM the same?
So all classes that have “on next swing” attacks are “homogenized”? Really?!
Are you serious? Giving pallies interesting tools colored to the tone of our class that would spice up our rotation is not optimal because – GASP – someone else has a similar mechanic? OMG, don’t give DKs dots because shadow priests have dots! ONLY ONE CLASS CAN HAVE DOTS!
Better to leave us with a simplistic rotation because giving us something more complicated would “homogenize” us.
Can anyone seriously argue this? There are a limited number of mechanics in Wow, and I would personally like to see more.
I’m not afraid getting a dot is going to make me a DK or a warrior, and I hope no one else is either.
Honestly….
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@Anafielle
26 March 2010 at 6:05 pm #
Compulsive self editor fails to edit her own comments… fail.
“I’m not sure how anyone thinks it’s homogenizing to add interesting ideas to the Paladin toolbox. While I don’t think anyone with a brain can actually play their pally with their 9699 macro’d to two buttons, the point remains that we have very few things to think about and respond to – like a dot falling off, or a reflexive ability.”
I’m still irritated at all the people who are waving around this HOMOGENITY word like it’s a four letter curse word. How about COMPEXITY? Can I have some of that, please?
There are a limited number of different mechanics to go around. No one with half a brain would argue that a DK’s dots and a warrior’s dots are anything alike. So why would a pally dot that required some maintenance “homogenize” us?
Personally, I feel pretty damn gypped that I only get one of those 4 kinds of attacks Rhidach listed. I’m a little irritated that one of my cooldowns is a no-thought-required spec choice, and a major utility debuff is another spec choice.
MORE BUTTONS PLEASE
End soapbox.
Anafielle’s last blog ..Lich King Blues
I’d like to point back to an earlier discussion that GC was having with various members of the tanking boards, in that, he feels Paladin threat is a little too high right now. Most people have pointed out “Well, yeah, we do kinda excel at undead, and that’s this instance in a nutshell”, yet no one has pointed out that we rarely have to actually deviate from our threat rotation. We might toss the occasional CD or Hand on someone, but for the most part, our GCDs are spent 99% of the time on threat.
Tie a debuff to a button push (judgement doesn’t really count because it’s still a staple of our rotation), and I can guarantee that alone will reduce our TPS a bit. Not a significant portion I’m sure, but it would be a step in the right direction in addressing a few key issues people seem to have against paladins (and, in fact, issues we paladins have against our class, as well).
@Rhidach
26 March 2010 at 11:27 pm #
Excellent point Lanaka!
I don’t know, I’m torn. On the one hand, I WOULD like to have more reactivity and thought in my “standard” tanking style. On the other, I really do enjoy that having the entire thing bound to either two buttons or muscle memory (depending on whether I actually need to change it up during a given fight) gives me time to watch the room and Grid and help out with utility spells on the spur of the moment. I may not do it all the time, but it’s enough of the time that more concentration on waiting on certain priorities to light up would probably hurt it. Maybe I’m just not an experienced enough raider, but I enjoy my eye-in-the-sky perspective on raid tanking.
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If I wanted to play reactively, I’d have chosen a Warrior.
The reason I play a pally (one of them, at least) is that I like the elegant, straightfoward, “no surprises” rotation. And I like to have many buttons to push, unlike Retribution which is the real faceroll spec (CS, DS, JoW, Exor when proc, rinse and repeat).
Vindicatoin being something you’d actually need to press? Doesn’t sound terrible. Although I’m sure our Retribution counterparts may disagree. :)
@Rhidach
29 March 2010 at 1:10 pm #
Ret needs more buttons to push anyways, haha.
Long time lurker and reader, I have to say that idea makes me nervous. I know it was originally directed at druids, but if they come for druids they are coming for us is my thought. (It’s not paranoia when they really are out to get you.) We already have a huge amount of utility as it stands now. Our rotation when first learned is complex, but yes it can be trained to muscle memory.
I like this entire concept. If I want to play a stat priority /complex tank, I can easily pick up and level a warrior. It has no interest for me. I have a spell priority rotation on my elemental/Resto Shaman, and my dps is terrible. If I hit the buttons in the wrong order my dps is cut almost in half. As a pally I can open with my shield throw, consecrate, or Hammer of the Righteous. It all works. Yes it can all be macroed, but honestly who does that? You don’t know if what you want to hit will be up when you want.
I like the simplicity. I discovered I don’t care much for tanking. I am a healer in a tank suit. I am still a healer on the inside. I never understood the whole “tank mentality idea” until I realized I don’t have it, and never will. Sometimes I heal by filling green bars of teammates, and sometimes I heal by lowering green bars of enemies.
I did not become a tank until the guild asked. And even then it was kicking and screaming. I literally cried. I leveled Holy, let that sink in. I did not know any better. I was told they needed either tanks or healers. I became a healer, and leveled before dual spec. When that feature came out I was told to go tank.
There are many like me. Sure I am the guild’s MT in ICC, and it is my main, I tank for them. I like them. I don’t care for tanking in general. I am part of the “tanking shortage” everyone believes exists. I don’t really think it does. I think there are a great many people who tank just kinda okay, and don’t want to put up with jerkwads. We need a tanking class that can easily maintain threat on mobs. I don’t mind which buttons I am mashing, but I don’t want it to rise to the frustration level it was when I first learned it. Or if they take away Righteous Fury, or some similar nerf to our threat where we have to tab targets or something, and throw hammers as often as it is up, I swear I will quit tanking.
Also Blizz has a bad tendancy to overdo things, and then slowly buff back to appropriate levels. I would rather see a slow nerf than a buff. Give me time to adjust to the changes gradually. I don’t care if pallies are the worst tank in the game and the best tanks in the game based solely around who is playing it. I just want a relatively simple to maintain tank. No muss no fuss.
I don’t see why there is not room for great tanks like you, divine plea, BOK, and ardent defender et al., and tanks on the other end who are not full of fail, but are hardly full of win either. By that I mean tanks like me. We are not proper tanks in the traditional sense, but we are able to fill the roll in a casual guild.
Perhaps that will be the way of the Cataclysm though, either excel or fail. I doubt it given the games direction and Blizz’s policy, but it could happen. I don’t think it will come that way or that soon.
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