Why I love Rogues (a raid recap)
This is Falowin (also known in our guild and among the ranks of the Dark Touched Warriors as “Failowin”). I promised him in my previous post I’d write a little bit on the topic of “why I love Rogues” if he made the raid that night. He did, and unfortunately I didn’t manage to capture a screenshot of his corpse at any point, so I’ll have to deliver on the topic in haiku form.
Fail to win, he says!
Like a Forsaken carpet
He keeps the floor warm
My kidding aside, he’s actually really good dps. And he doesn’t die as much as he used to. Always a plus!
But, I digress. As to the raid recap …
We started Tuesday, as most raid weeks are wont to do, but in a slight panic. 8pm server hit and we only had 20 raiders on, which made the chances of the raid that night look somewhat bleak. We decided the best course of action was 20man FL and hope that a few more people hop on by the time it dies so we can keep going.
Thankfully luck was on our side and we had 25 people before we even pulled FL. The last few trash clears before the Leviathan consisted of people logging on, saying in guild chat “any room in raid?” and being quickly /invited.
So we had our full raid group and quickly downed Flame Lev. But, for the umpteenth week in a row Titanguard refused to drop. Alas. Maybe next week (when I have more dkp than Demo…).
In any case, Tuesday was a banner opening raid night for us, because we overcame the initial rough start and proceeded to steam roll right through Razorscale, XT, Iron Council, Kolo, and Auriaya.
Then with a decent amount of time left we turned out sights on Hodir. I enforced my rule about not leaving trash pulls up because I know, deep down in that shriveled black nugget I call a heart, that some knucklehead is going to bound right into one of those puffing snow mounds after a Hodir wipe, and we’re all going to have to each another 10% dura loss because they weren’t paying attention.
You better believe I body pulled every snow mound from the first pull to Hodir’s cavern.
Once we were at Hodir we kind of reinforced our previous strategy (as much as we had one) and put in a few attempts. Our best shot got him to 20%, which obviously meant we were doing something right (not completely though, there are some changes we need to make to our approach). But, after about an hour or so of wiping, tempers were flaring among some of the guild’s more… impatient… raiders. One of them declared in guild chat “F[e]ck progression. F[e]ck.” And then DC’d. Hrm.
In any case, we put in a few more attempts, but it was getting late, so we called it.
Still not a bad night, and more importantly, I was then 3 badges away from my Conqueror’s Aegis Faceguard.
Then last night we had something of the same issue, 8pm server time hit, and only 20ish raiders were on. With WG in Alliance hands we decided just to form raid, go plug away at Freya’s tree buddies, and wait for the last few souls to come on before we moved to Hodir.
Before we even pulled the first tree miniboss, the raid filled up. We stayed the course and downed the three (giving me my last 3 emblems, woo hoo) and then with all the trash cleared a consensus formed of “hey let’s give Freya a try.”
Surprisingly, the fight is very easy if you can manage the three pack that she summons. The way we handled it was I held Storm Lasher and the Ancient Water Spirit, and a druid tank grabbed Snaplasher and pulled it away. We nuked my two adds to 20% or so, then swapped to Snap and took it out, then switched back to my two to finish the pack off.
We had some initial difficulty, but once people realized how to moderate their dps, and learned to pay attention to the random healing tree that would spawn, we started making progress. We probably had two bad learning wipes, then one really close attempt (Freya had 30 stacks of attunement left when we died), then on the fourth shot we had a flawless execution on all the add summons and took her down. Our first 25man Keeper kill (so to speak)!
Two pairs of the Warrior/Hunter/Shaman pants dropped, which is honestly for the best. I need to get the Saronite Plated Legguards so I can justify to myself passing over the T8.5 dress.
After the rejoicing following downing Freya we hopped over to Wintergrasp and downed Emalon for some extra emblems and to nab some more tier pieces. I know that between Freya and Emalon one hunter got two tier pieces that night.
And of course, the second people stopped paying attention to me, I slipped away back to Dal and grabbed my new helm.
Hawt.
After WG we headed back to Ulduar (disjointed, I know) and gave Ignis a few shots. We initially had some difficulty, but at my suggestion Demo and I swapped spots (him tanking Ignis, I helping with adds) and thanks to his extra cooldown and better survivability (in addition to the syngergy I can give the raid with Divine Sacrifice/Hand of Sacrifice), and my natural acumen dealing with adds, we downed him easily.
Obviously it’s pretty disappointing that the raid was at a disadvantage with me tanking Ignis, but I’m not going to gimp everyone for the sake of my own ego. This is just the state Pally tanking in Ulduar is right now, alas.
Ultimately, it was an awesome night all around. Lots of people got loot, a few people (including yours truly) got their T8 2-set bonuses, and most importantly it gave the guild fresh hope that with a little elbow grease we can meet any challenge in Ulduar in due time.
Armory Feed
@Pugtor
11 June 2009 at 2:02 pm #
Regarding Emalon… Typically I tank the adds in the Emalon fight. However, they’re spread far apart in the beginning and it takes me about 10 seconds to get binding threat on all four. Sometimes, despite my warnings, people rush in or begin healing me before I have solid aggro, and badness ensues.
I typically run in, AS a far add, judge one and try to catch another with melee/exorcism, but the diagonal add tends to still be out of range by the time my first heal lands, so it becomes a taunt game.
Should I rush Emalon, stand on him and Consecrate/HotR? Keep doing what I’m doing but better?
@Rhidach
11 June 2009 at 2:22 pm #
What I typically do is run in first, shield toss the far left add, then let everything come at me and bunch up. At this point the warrior tank taunts Emalon and starts to run away. I then HotR, which typically hits all the adds. Whatever looks like it isn’t under my control gets a Hand of Reck and/or an Exorcism.
i typically shield toss the whole group and consecrate then hammer the adds after the other tank has pulled emalon off…
works everytime and then i go to my corner.. keeping HS up and just yawning =D
I see your haiku and raise you a shakespearean sonnet:
We raid with Rhidach the Paladin Tank,
He always has his bubble hearth ready.
Most of the bosses we run in and spank,
Except when his aggro is unsteady
DPS is strong offensive power,
The Paladin calmly soaks up heals
We wreck a boss for hours and hours
While Rhidach monitors his AH Deals.
Tankadins are much like the quarterback
Taking credit off those who work harder
The movie stars of warcraft laying back,
While a Rogue like me becomes a martyr
I would give him more credit if I could
But Rhidach is Demo, but not as good.
Rogatien – For Emalon i do this.
On each side of Emalon is 2 adds. So i first run to the right side near to the adds then consecrate. I then toss the ranged hamemr to the 2 left side mobs, and hope it bounces. If it didn’t touch one of the left side adds, i will use my single taunt to grab it.
Then i will just consecrate and use my righteous hammer. Task completed, you have successfully got aggro on the adds.
Your MT can either tank Emalon to the back wall or to the left, while you off tank the adds to the right wall.
Just make sure you got threat on the adds, but do not kill them or try to hurt them too much. Only start dpsing the add that gets the buff when Emalon casts it.
When any adds die, be on the look out for respawns and get ready to single taunt them to you.
ps: Whenever first pulling the adds but your not l33t geared, i recommend you use shield of protection on yourself as 2 things may happen; either healers waiting for you to get aggro so you will have lack of heals, or Emalon wasn’t pulled off you in time.
@ Falowin
Very nice Falowin… I am always impressed when I am complimented through poetry, even if it is at the expense of my brother tank.
@ Rhidach
I will make sure and let him die a lot Sunday when you’re not there. I will “accidentally” forget to taunt when he “accidentally” pulls aggro. I got your back brah! <– USED IRONICALLY
@honorshammer
12 June 2009 at 8:54 am #
“Demo and I swapped spots (him tanking Ignis, I helping with adds) and thanks to his extra cooldown and better survivability ”
I am looking forward to getting a second cooldown from Blizzard.
Was there something else just beyond him having an additional cooldown. As I understand it, Paladins and Warriors are very close in both magic and physical mitigation, so I can’t understand how you think that Warriors are more survivable outside of the cooldown issue.
I don’t believe it to be a gap in survivability. I think the stars aligned for that particular attempt and the healers and DPS came together and did it right, the fact that I was on Ignis was just coincidence.
That’s just me though, I have complete faith in Rhi’s ability to tank just as well if not better than I can.
@honorshammer
12 June 2009 at 11:16 am #
That happens many times in raiding, where it just comes together.
Warriors and Paladins seem pretty close (some would say too close), but still need some love to catch up with the DKs and Druids.
You two seemed to have developed a great tanking team, and that will be benefit your raid for a long time.
Gratz on your kill.
I really haven’t had any issues MTing anything in Ulduar as a paladin, though we’re still trying to get Hodir down in our 25 group. You need to get that confidence up. We’re only partially gimped on hard modes it seems to me.
There are a few possibilities why Rhi would die.
1. Ignis gains a Damage increase buff for each Iron Construct that are alive. So if the off tank does a poor job at baking and cooling them, these constructs will accumulate and there will be more then 1 alive at any one time. Therefore the Tank will be taking some huge hits.
2. Maybe the off tank is baking and cooling the constructs efficiently, but the problem is the mage or oomkin who is incharge of killing them once they are cooled in water isn’t doing it properly. So the construct that was suppose to die managed to get away instead, so this then accumulates iron constructs.
3. Maybe the main tank healer was put into the pot. But they did not communicate to ventrilo for another healer to pick up the healing on MT, or the other healers did not pick up heals in time.
4. If none of the above was the issue, but fight drags on for a very long time, then this would be a DPS issue. All dps should at all times focus on Ignis only. Only 1-2 mages or oomkin would single shot a construct only when they are in the water cooling off.
5. And the last consideration is the main tank himself had failed either in gear or in skills. Ignis Tank should do 2 things. Position Ignis facing away from raid, and to plant the fire pillars carefully on both sides.
There are a few ways of doing Ignis so ill mention the common strat that works well for me.
The MT plants 2 fire pillars on each side near to the water. These 2 must be planted as close as possible to each other, but leaving a small gap between them so the oomkin/mage and the off tank can get through the tiny crack.
Another important step a main tank needs to do is, whenever Ignis plants the fire pillars by casting, do not wait for it to finish casting, just immediately strafe jump to the side to get out of the fire asap. This greatly minimizes your damage intake. This could be one reason why the MT takes too much damage and would die.
With all of the above in mind, for my gear and skill set and my execution, as a Paladin Main Tank i would not think my death would be my fault but would most likely be caused by the other causes i had mentioned because they are more likely to be the cause.
Rhi you seem capable enough so i don’t think you would be having an issue with jump strafing out of fire before/during the pillar fire cast, so you probably should check if your off tank is doing his job. If he is, then check if the mage/oomkin assigned are doing their job. if they are, check with the healers if their giving you the heals on time.
Keep track how many constructs were up at the time, if there was more then 1, then obviously the one at fault is either off tank or mage/oomkin assigned to the constructs, or both.
So anyway, my above comment was about the main tanks perspective. Now i will be covering from an Off tanks perspective.
I only did Ignis heroic once as an off tank and 1 shotted it on my first try. So i am not fully sure just how many constructs will spawn at any single summon. So i will just talk based on my experiences in 10 man.
As an off tank, i just wait until Emalon summons an iron construct. I pay attention to which of the 4 corners the construct will appear. Usually you can instantly find out when some graphics effects sizzle over a construct. But if you missed it, the construct health bar will turn hostile anyway.
The problem here is making sure you identify where the golem is and targeting taunting them in time before they kill someone. Maybe a macro to /target iron construct would not be such a bad idea. Another issue is Construct is not too visible if their are spawning behind a fire as you can’t get a good look, for me anyway. Basically as soon as Emalon gives his speech about summoning his minion, start rotating your view in a circle to find out where they are coming from and instantly grab aggro.
Once you have aggro, determine which is the fire you should pull them to. It is always better to pull them to the newest fire because it won’t fade while your trying to bake them.
If you attempt to bake them in an old fire, there is a risk that the fire dies before you completed baking them to 10 debuff. Without the fire the debuff won’t accumulate and the debuff fades away.
You would have wasted time on a single golem and have to bake it all over again. This is a common mistake an offtank would commit, and this is the biggest reason why constructs would swarm the raid and cause a wipe.
Also try and put golem in the center of the pillar of fire so they cook faster.
Anyway once the construct has 10 debuff, just kite them to the nearest water. I would throw in a taunt and a exorcism to hold threat for good measure. Because when it turns into a fire construct they would lose aggro on you.
And when the construct is in the water, do not run anywhere near it. Because when the mage/oomkin kills it, the construct will blow up and does an insane amount of damage to anyone near it’s vicinity. Yes the mage/oomkin should be aware of this, but it doesn’t help if you are near the constructs vicinity while it is cooling in the water.
One the fire construct is in the water, communicate to the mage or oomkin assigned to it, to kill immediately. You probably don’t even need to say anything, as they should be paying attention to it themselves. If they fail at killing the construct on time, then it’s their fault and not yours.
Besides the baking/cooling, off tanks make sure if more then 1 construct appears at any time, don’t hesitate to grab all constructs as it may be required for you to bake/cool 2-3 of them at the same time. Pop your Divine Protection and a health pot if you are baking/cooling 2-3 golems simultaneously in a fire.
So to sum it up, an off tank just bakes and cools iron constructs. Make sure you do it efficiently and everything will be cake. Biggest causes for a wipe on Ignis would be a fail on the bake/cooling process.
ps: for the mage/oomkin in charge of killing constructs during the cooling phase, make sure if you are disabled in the pot to immediately inform the raid. Someone should always be assigned as a backup incase someone is disabled. Only one person would be in the pot at any 1 time, so only 1 backup is needed unless that backup died.
So the final reason for a raid wipe is poor planing and communication for backups to fill the roles of those who are in the pot. A raid leader should pay close attention to this and plan ahead who will pick up the slack, and make sure everyone communicates who is in pot.
[...] Falowin likes to make fun of Demo’s optimism every so often by declaring in raids that “god himself cannot stop us” whenever we’re on a roll. In this case I think he may be right. [...]