Joined the dark side, want my cookies
So this weekend I had a lot of time to play WoW because my girlfriend was on the opposite side of the country, and as a result was really bored. To pass the time I did something I’ve been meaning to do since November: roll a DK and do the starting area quests.
Problem is, I really liked it. Playing a DK is fun. DPSing as one isn’t like Ret where there’s no strategy, no using each cooldown as they come up. You have to make sure both diseases are up, dump runic power when you have too much, build it up when you have too little, etc. Blizzard definitely put a lot more thought into this class and their playstyle than they have with others.
I’ve already gotten my DK, Rheaver, up to level 63 and I’m anxious to take him for a spin in the endgame.
Would I tank as a DK? Probably not, except for maybe taking it for a spin. I’m too invested in Rhidach–emotionally, and in terms of achievements, equipment, what have you. But the temptation is there, gnawing on my subconscious like a Mynock on a power cable.
And I understand the sentiment behind forum posts like this one. As it stands now, Paladins are fundamentally flawed when it comes to tanking in Ulduar. We’re not designed to be eating 20k+ hits with regularity (we have one–one–freaking cooldown!), we’re built for lots of tiny little hits (Holy Shield, Ardent Defender, Sacred Shield) or helping other tanks eat their giant hits (Divine Sacrifice, Hand of Sacrifice). Blizzard has completely screwed the pooch when it comes to Paladin tanking as of late.
Last night I was tanking Ignis and we wiped many times because the boss would two shot me with two massive melees, before a heal could get in. The entire time I couldn’t help but think that a DK was so much better suited for the task. I had one cooldown to use (dps was riding too close for Hand of Salv, making it too risky) so I had to be exceptionally frugal on when I popped it. I basically waited for any time a healer got pulled into Ignis’ firecrotch. And in the mean time I’m eating 100% damage for the majority of the fight, when a DK in my same situation could rotate through his three cooldowns and make the encounter that much easier.
This really needs to be fixed, with some kind of parity (not homogenization, parity) spread around. Block needs to be fixed/changed and a new cooldown needs to be issued. Pronto-like.
Anyway, apologies for the rant… I’m just very frustrated at how Blizzard could have been caught so unawares at the direction tanking has taken, and how seriously unprepared they left us.
Armory Feed
@PinkRaidFrames
3 June 2009 at 8:30 pm #
/empathize
Reroll and you’re a sissy! ;-)
@Rhidach
3 June 2009 at 10:06 pm #
Hey! I’m not rerolling… just checking out how green the grass really is on the other side. :\
@PinkRaidFrames
3 June 2009 at 11:53 pm #
I’ve found two easy solutions to my DK woes.
First, I’ve stopped watching our DK’s health bar when he MTs. That just pisses me off.
Secondly, I turn off vent when it is my turn to tank Thorim so I can’t hear our healers QQ about how much damage I’m taking.
There is only one question left in my mind. Should I spend my DKP on block gear in the hopes that it may actually be useful sometime in the near future.
:-)
I totally understand why your reluctant to stay with your pally but yet still curious about other classes. I’m pretty single minded so i just stick to my Pally screw other classes :D
I don’t fully agree that Paladins are no good for tanking big bosses, and also your example for Ignis.
I do admit that Death Knights are at the moment kings of pop cooldown and best mitigation for bosses. And they have a aoe threat of sorts.
But Paladins are still kings of the all rounders. We excel at threat and treat it like nothing while other classes need to work harder for threat. We also hold and handle groups of mobs must better then any other tank.
As for mitigation abilities we got Hand of Salvation that reduces our damage by 20% if we get the glpyh for it, although we need to be smart when we use it because it also reduces our aggro. a 2 minute cool down.
We also have Divine Protection that reduces our damage by 50% a 2 minute cooldown.
When we are not main tanking or even if we are but in certain situations, we can pop divine shield and divine sacrifice/divine guardian to mitigate 40% of damage received by every individual in raid within 40 yards from you. What other tank can boast that ?
So basically we got 2 abilities for personal mitigation while we tank, and an extra ability to protect raid when we don’t tank.
I would recommend to supplement your character with trinkets to add in more mitigation abilities. I use a health trinket in combination with a mitigation trinket for my tanking purposes. I noticed you have the Heart of Iron and the Monarch crab, so that adds nice HP and 2 more mitigation abilities with 3 minutes or below cool down to your mitigation arsenal.
Truth of the matter is, without Pally tanks, or Pallys in general, Ulduar would be a bitch to do :]
I haven’t main tanked Ignis yet since i was a new tank so they prefered their regular member to do it. But i handled the Golems well and we 1 shotted him. This was my first time doing it too.
Recently i tanked Razerscale and Maly both in 25 just fine without issues :]
My only qualms for Pally tanking atm is we don’t have enough magic mitigation. Sure we have Aura’s but that is probably not enough. Whenever i do Occulus, those small drakes spells really bypasses all my normal tanking stats and i take lots of damage real quick even with my gear level. Bit sad really.
One thing i forgot to add. We got exorcism and that other spell we can range throw and it will bounce off to multiple targets and silence them. In terms of ranged aggro for initial pulls, i think we also are best at that, especially true when tanking in Nax with a lot of undead.
Our threat spells are dependant on mana, where as warriors and druids are rage, and Dks are runic based. We probably got an edge on that too, because we don’t need to wait for a build up of rage. We can go in and max out threat, divine plea if needed, or we regain mana through Sanctuary by dodging etc, or when we get healed.
Also compared to other tanks, we can off spec to either heals or DPS. Only the Druids can match us on that feat, the other 2 can’t.
I can still remember Paladin tanking situations
pre TBC, TBC and early WOTLK. Gear was crap, abilities were crap.
PRE TBC = Pally tanking was pathetic. You would rarely catch a pally caught dead tanking. Back then in raids we were conscripted to being Holy Pally cleansers. And nobody took Ret pallies dps seriously either. The only reason people took us in was for cleanses, buffs and maybe our auras.
TBC = Got better but still pathetic. same old issue. But Ret Pally got some improvements, at one point we could 5 shot someone to death :D
WOTLK = Brilliant ! But we still had issue about pulling ranged. We still had to tap them, consecrate, then go hide behind a wall to get them grouped up nice and tight in melee range. Ret and Holy Paladin looked awesome too.
WOTLK patch = They give our range spell that bounces of mobs to also silence them. problem solved.
WOTLK patch = They made Divine Sacrifice and Divine Guardian very attractive. Recommended for both MT and OT. Recommend it to all Paladins :D Hm Ret Pally got nerfed :[
@Rhidach
4 June 2009 at 8:13 am #
@Doxa: I’m holding off buying anything other than T8 right now for that very reason!
@Moogle: I don’t dispute that Pallies have a wide-ranging toolbox of skills that make us excel in certain circumstances, but my issue is that right now endgame is Ulduar and the name of the game is cooldowns for mitigating high-damage hits. DKs are top dog in Ulduar right now because they have so many cooldowns while we are at the bottom of the totem pole with only 1.
I think Ghost crawler had mentioned about cooldowns specific for Paladins to come, so we will see….
And you did mention they took notice of how block is being neglected these days, so their probably gonna be looking at that to.
As far a mitigation cooldown spells, we have no choice but to time ours for times of emergency only and/or any other special events.
For any lack of cooldowns we have, i suggest supplementing our inbuilt cooldown mitigation spells with the trinkets. The best ones i can think of is Monarch crab and the Heart of Iron.
So imho with the right gear we can get by pretty good.
But i do see where your coming from …. Everyone will always prefer to have DKs tanking bosses over Paladins even though we are capable as well. All that just means is that the should definately be nerfed because they are too overpowered in cooldown spells alone. But then again DK is considered a heroic class you need to unlock, maybe thats why they are getting this special treatment for best mitigation tanks ….
Even so, i am not to put off because i am Pally. I will just work harder get better gear and trinkets to supplement my lack of mitigation cooldown spells, and also out tank a DK through skills and experience.
So let us examine how the other tanks cope with mitigation. ( warning: i am not an expert in these other classes so some of it may be wrong, so feel free to correct me. )
Druid:
Pros: Tons of Stamina, easily def capped, lots of dodge 60% i hear o_O, and LOTS of armor…… basically one touch punching bag to soak in lots of damage.
Cons: Probably weak against spells. Dependant on rage for things to hit it in order for them to cast any threat spells.
DK:
Pros: Ridiculous amount of mitigation cooldown spells ( NERF alert ! ), very nice stamina, nice defense. Threat is pretty ok. Can interupt spells.
Cons: Threat probably not as good as Paladins.
Warrior:
Pros: Ok stamina, very good at getting into melee range by charging. Also has a nice ability to reflect spells which does a hefty amount of damage and threat, e.g. Volazj in Old Kingdom for the achievement. Can disarm and interrupt which is good for caster bosses. Probably best against spell damage among the tanks.
Cons: Takes time for them to build rage. Not as good as pally for group of mob aggro.
By the way, yesterday when doing Ulduar 25, we had a Death Knight tank with 45k stamina after buffs and with crazy avoidance. He was in Ulduar 25 gear o_o; i was drooling so much.
Well moogle, itrs not that hard to get over 40k HP nowadays ina 25 man raid setting, I get over 41-42k hp myself, and i bet Rhidach here can get a couple more K than i do, and my only ULD 25 man piece is Titanguard
@Rhidach
5 June 2009 at 11:56 am #
Yeah, flasked and well fed (and properly buffed) in my survivability gear I’ve broken 45k I believe.