The worm turns on block
Oh, for the halcyon days of TBC when Block was the envy of the non-blocking tank classes (er, well, Druids). Now that stat has been getting the short shrift as of late, with the big hits of Ulduar making block all but useless. As this fact has dawned on more and more tanks, the zeitgeist is clearly turning against block.
Doxa has a great post about the inherent issue with the block mechanic on PRF. Money quote:
In the end, the reason tanks die is spike damage and paladins are eating more of it is because the % of damage mitigated through block value gets smaller and smaller when bosses are hitting harder and harder. 1700 damage mitigated is 1700 damage mitigated whether you’re hit for 2k or 30k.
That sums up the issue perfectly. Block is a bum mechanic that is becoming more and more outdated with every raid instance. And thankfully Ghostcrawler has recognized this. He wrote on the forums that:
Block was a fine stat back when bosses could do Crushing Blows. In their absence, it does feel like it has slipped as a source of mitigation. We (the developers and the community) were worried at the launch of Lich King that block would make warriors the best tanks, paladins second, and everyone else far behind. In retrospect we should have been more focused on the cooldowns and number of hits a tank could take in a row.
Which is the crux of the matter isn’t it? Right now tanks live and die by big hits and how they deal with them. Druids soak damage, DKs blow cooldowns and [had] lots of armor, and Warriors/Paladins… um… block? Clearly, in this brave new world of 20k melees, we are at a disadvantage, and something needs to be done.
Furthermore, Ghostcrawler then indicated in a later thread that block was indeed being looked at by the developers:
We don’t think block is cutting it as a mechanic, but the direction we are likely to take it is probably more of a change than you are considering.
Ominous. In any case, based on the example he gives it looks like he’s leaning towards a situation where non-block tanks would continue to use cooldowns/high HP and armor to avoid/mitigate large damage, while the block tanks would have block help them mitigate more damage on some big hits, and they would eat more of the damage on others. Block rating would go down but block value would go up, making block some sort of bastard child of avoidance and mitigation: mitigation on the RNG.
I can’t say I’m completely a fan, although it seems to be a step in the right direction. In the final analysis, giving up a baseline mitigation of around 1800 damage for occasional mitigation of 8000 damage (or whatever it works out to) would be a fair trade for what we need most: better survivability against the hard hitters of Ulduar and beyond.
Armory Feed
humm thats sounds like they are going to change block value froma fixed number to a percent, similar to the other “ratings”, so we would be drooling all over blocking gear again. And, if you ask me, wouldnt be so bad as it is now.
given a 20k hit that gets blocked:
- current scenario: Big Bad Boss (BBB from now on) beats teh crap out of you by 18500 hp (1500 blocked) (humm thats 8% mitigated, right?)
- Logan´s imagination: BBB hits you for 16000 dmg (4000 blocked) (15% dmg mitigated)
@Rhidach
27 May 2009 at 1:05 pm #
Yeah it’ll probably be something like that but with us blocking less often. Holy Shield will probably be changed so we can’t be block capped anymore.
Yup, but maybe they will go with something that increases your block % or reflects X ammount of DMG back to te attacker, but it looks like too much work, so maybe we will never see it, or not, maybe we will be seeing it “soon”TM
totally random note: got BLood Drainina on my Titanguard, i will check how it works out, and let you know
@PinkRaidFrames
28 May 2009 at 10:27 am #
I’m definitely expecting, as well, a drop in my block rating. That kinda disappoints me but I can see the dev’s concern if they buff BV that the 102.4% avoidance/block numbers would be OP if the BV % is very high.
Strangely, however, a change to this could end up meaning more mitigation against bosses but less powerful against trash.
Example (from Logan for BBB):
current scenario: Big Bad Boss (BBB from now on) beats teh crap out of you by 18500 hp (1500 blocked) (humm thats 8% mitigated, right?)
- Logan´s imagination: BBB hits you for 16000 dmg (4000 blocked) (15% dmg mitigated)
Example (of trash using the same numbers and napkin math just to highlight the differences).
current scenario – 4 trash mobs hit you for 2000 each every 2 seconds. You block 1500 per attack for a total damage incoming over 20 seconds of 20k. That’s a 75% damage mitigation from block. Pretty nice.
- If BV becomes a percent (say 15%) you take 68k worth of damage!
And that’s IF they don’t change BR and you can still block everything with HS / Redoubt.
The problem with a base % is that you’ll get ripped up while trash tanking many adds but mitigating huge numbers against bosses (depending on the percentage)
My basic thinking on block value is that is should also have a base and a cap. So, block value may read something like: “Base Block Value = 1700 or 8%, whichever is higher”.
Yup i was thinking the same thing, when i wrote it I said to myself: “You are gonna get your ass handed to you on thrash”
@PinkRaidFrames
28 May 2009 at 1:19 pm #
Hey! I’m in favor of this! Maybe I won’t have to tank trash anymore. :-) Some perceptions die hard.
Humm wow.com (the blog previously known as wowinsider) has just posted another article on this matter, so just go overthere and check it =P
@PinkRaidFrames
28 May 2009 at 1:32 pm #
Interesting. Mostly accurate I think (although I read it really fast).
With the incoming changes to block (I REALLY hope they come soon) I’m wondering how warriors and paladins are going to be distinguished.
@Rhidach
28 May 2009 at 1:49 pm #
I’m wondering how warriors and paladins are going to be distinguished.
We’ll be the ones in pink, they’ll be the ones in brown.
@PinkRaidFrames
28 May 2009 at 1:51 pm #
Hmm… good point. Why am I a paladin again?
@Rhidach
28 May 2009 at 2:00 pm #
Hmm… good point. Why am I a paladin again?
That sounds like warrior talk to me!
@PinkRaidFrames
28 May 2009 at 2:09 pm #
Be cursed!
WTS pink raid frame, will trade for Brown Raid Frame! PST for more info!
@PinkRaidFrames
28 May 2009 at 4:28 pm #
I’m trying to work here. No more jokes. My peers are becoming suspicious.
Ok i’m confused.
I’m the high defense 560, with at least 26-27 % dodge 30 parry with 30 k hp unbuffed. I’m your typical dodger type pally tank.
My block gear i wear for general tanking is basically 0. With holy shield i generally get 42% roughly.
So for a dodger class tankadin, do we need a little block at least ? And if so how much ?
*correction. I mean’t to say 540-560 defense ( cauz depending on what gear i choose to switch to ), 26-28 dodge ( depending on what gear and trinket i use ), 20 parry, 29k-30k unbuffed .
@Rhidach
29 May 2009 at 9:12 am #
You only want as much block as will get you to dodge+parry+miss+block=102.4%. After that point block is worthless, as it’ll just fall off the hit table.
In my case, I’ve got 19.54% block, and an additional 30% when Holy Shield is up. That’s probably as far as I need it.
Same, i usually get up to 107% or more (if redobt procs), so i usually dont gear for block rating (block value is something i used to gear back when i had issues with threat generation), so id go for dodge and stamina as priorities when choosing gear upgrades
Is block considered an avoidance stat ?
By the way i got roughly 14% block, and a additional 30% with HS which i maintain 100% of the time so thats about 44% block
If i do dodge+parry+miss+block= it comes up to roughly 88% that means i am still 14.4% away from having max use of my block :/
yes and no.
The affirmative answer to this would be for those times when a Block is translated into zero damage taken due to your block value being higher than the dmg input.
However, when the incoming Damage is larger than your block value, a “Block” can be considered a RNG-Powered Mitigation stat.
so, for low dmg hits yes its avoidance, for BBB (Big Bad Boss tm)sized hits, its mitigation at best…
Rhi – On a side note, i read up some information concerning block i’d like to share.
http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1045991
“PS – Block was only considered an avoidance stat in TBC where you needed 102.4% block + dodge + parry to prevent crushing blows. When they changed crushing mechanics, most think tanks decided to call it a mitigation stat.”
So can i say for WOTLK as of now, block although not needed for crushing blow as was the case in TBC, the 102.4% total avoidance + block = is still relevant to make the full use of block. Is this statement true ?
Another thing i am confused about is what is the difference between block and block value ? Is it
block = chance to block
block value = more damage reduced whenever you block something ?