Rabble, rabble, rabble
The community is in complete uproar right now over the recently announced plans to change raiding in Cataclysm in regards to 10 and 25man raiding. As the announcement states, both will drop the same loot (thought 25s will drop more) and both will be of a comparable difficulty. Personally, I think this is a fantastic change, and this is coming from someone who primarily raids in 25s.
If my guild dies this summer, I would in a heart beat just switch to pure 10s and never look back. I love the reduced size, the relaxed atmosphere, the greater comraderie. The fact that more often than not in 25s you need to deal with people that if you had the luxury of choice, you would disassociate with, has always left a bad taste in my mouth for the larger raid setting.
Likewise, I’m excited for all the people that are 10man raiders, either by choice or not, and will get to have the same loot and the same prestige, provided difficulties are balanced. If that’s even possible. Sure, you can make LK-25 have more health and do more damage than LK-10, but there are some things that will be harder to balance between 10s and 25s. More existential things. For example, Empowered Shock Vortex is *so* much easier to avoid in 10man, because you have so many fewer melee. Likewise the air phases on BQL, with only 10 people spreading out is cake.
Another plus: I won’t have to run two versions of the same content every week to max out my emblems intake. I never want to go back to the ToC system where I was doing ToC-10, H ToC-10, and ToC-25 every goddamn week. That was a prescription for burnout if I ever saw one.
But overall I think the change is awesome, and as long as they find some way to normalize the difficulty between 10s and 25s (and not just make 25s as easy as 10s, but rather the reverse) then it will be a boon for every aspiring raider in Azeroth. I could care less if someone in a strict 10man gets to enjoy the same flavor of ice cream as me. As long as we both worked as hard to chase down the truck, we deserve access to the same stuff.
On AVR
Ever since this was featured on mmo-champ this weekend, suddenly everyone knows about it, for good or ill. Mostly ill.
The reactions have run the gamut from “this cheapens raiding” to “this is cheating!!!” to “good players don’t need it, bad players will still stand in fire.”
I’ve sung the praises of this mod recently, and I will continue to do so. I love it, it’s awesome, and yes I like it because it makes certain bosses easier. For Rotface we used to stack on one leg then shift to another when a Big Ooze exploded. Now we just take care not to stand in the red circle. On 10man last night, I don’t think anyone ever even got hit by an ooze rocket.
I realize now I’ve offered evidence for the anti-AVR crowd. I guess all I can offer in the addon’s defense is that where some people see cheats, I see streamlining.
Perhaps (assuming Blizzard doesn’t kill this mod) the fact that an addon can neuter their oh-so-favorite mechanic, the “don’t stand in x”, they will respond by introducing some more depth to encounters that go beyond standing in the right place at the right time. I think it’s about time we finally kill off the void zone as a staple of boss design.
And ultimately I suppose that’s AVR’s sole strength: it kills the void zone. Using this mod won’t make slack-jawed raiders keep a Valk from dropping someone to their death, or get their bite off during BQL, or not stack their Mystic Buffet too high. AVR makes raiding as easy mode as DBM did when it allowed your to see the timers on boss abilities. It’s just another tool in the box.
Armory Feed
“As long as we both worked as hard to chase down the truck, we deserve access to the same stuff.”
Thanks for wanting to share the ice cream, Rhidach. :) This change is actually what strict tens folks have wanted since Wrath launched; to make it so that the progression size is a CHOICE and not a default “Oh you do 25s because you are awesome, 10s are for scrubs.”
I love doing heroic mode stuff with the people in our small guild. There’s about 15 of us total and we all know each other really well, and we have a blast. 25s just aren’t for me, and I never begrudged people their right to do 25s if that’s what they prefer. What has bothered me is the condescending attitude towards tens groups as if we just aren’t good enough to do the “real” content, when that isn’t the case at all. It’s refreshing to know there are folks out there who get it, and just want to do the content they want to do with just reward. Never again will I have to go, “Hmm, okay, such-and-such trinket is BiS for me but I can kiss that one goodbye because it’s only in 25-man.” I would’ve settled even for just having slightly stat-reduced versions of 25s loot, this is like my wildest dream come true.
Vidyala’s last blog ..Yes, I will murder those men in cold blood to avenge your son (again).
@hazmacewillraid
26 April 2010 at 1:04 pm #
I love AVR, I tried it out after reading your post and never looked back. For Rotface in particular it’s incredible; while all of our other raiders were running to the wall, I was standing safely between a few red circles where I was sure the ooze wasn’t going to land. Although I never got hit, I still kept a Sacred Shield on me and watched to see where the oozes were landing, because nothing is perfect. That said, less time running to the wall and back means more DPS time, meaning a faster kill.
And yeah, I just threw up a post on the Cata raid changes too; I agree that it’ll be nice only having to run one version of an instance a week, but I think it’s destroying a dynamic that’s thrived for multiple patches and beyond. I dunno, it just seems like Blizz is giving the shaft to those who actually tolerate the aneurysms and unsavory characters to put a 25-man raid together.
Sure, they’ll drop more loot… but just do more 10-mans. Yeah it’ll take a bit longer, maybe, but if it saves you from a stroke…
I am interested to see the outcome of the “if all things are equal, then everyone will just raid 10 mans” debate that has been going on for most of this expansion.
Oddly, the biggest purveyors of the argument have been Blizz devs. I’m not usually (/evilsmirk) in the habit of ripping them for an about face since we are often better for it (BtPntC), but I do wonder what data they use when they decide to switch philosophies like this.
@Rhidach
26 April 2010 at 1:28 pm #
@zelmaru: I completely agree. I think there’ll be less “growing pains” if people decide to switch from one format to another, since there’ll be the usual pre-xpac turmoil.
@Rhabella: I am as well. I don’t think you’ll see a massive tectonic shift to 10mans in Cataclysm. And, I’m willing to safely predict 10mans will still carry a stigma of being easier, true or not. The status quo will not change much other than strict 10man guilds will be getting a huge boost.
@Vidyala: I would like to see an end to that assumption as well. 10man guilds don’t get as much love as they deserve.
Re: AVR. With every freakin mod, someone says it’s cheating. Yes, you know MORE precisely where “the bad” is, but YOU are responsible for moving out of it. Prior to AVR, we put smoke flares on the floor to indicate positions. I’m just not seeing the problem.
Re: 10/25 changes…. eh, I don’t know. It’s hard when you’ve assembled a team for a certain number/ratio and the rug is pulled out from under you, so to speak. But with Cata, everyone’s gonna be shuffling around and returning from hiatus, switching guilds, etc – and I do think it will work itself out.
zelmaru’s last blog ..Haiku Monday (Prophetic Warning in Haiku Form)
I saw it at Tales of a Priest, then here, before installing it for last week’s raid. It is, in most cases, very nice to have. It is also helpful to show you when people might be out of position, leading to way too many voids in the wrong areas. I liked it so much I made a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPaOIYrKzUk
As for 10s vs 25s, every time I do a 10 man fight it just seems so… tame. Yes, I’m over geared for 10s, but the mechanics can still kill. It just takes so much less brain power to process the environment, do my job, and identify people & things. I am observing and analyzing so much more when I see a 10s encounter for the first time, compared to 25s.
This, also, says nothing about out-of-encounter effort required to lead & coordinate.
As for 10s nerfing spread mechanics, they could probably increase the spread distance for many encounters.
I think it is important that Blizz said that the 25mans will drop more emblems than the 10mans. This will stop top 25man raiding guilds from dropping their 15 worst members, or creating 2 10man groups instead. Also, judging by the wording of the post, it seems that each 25man encounter will drop more loot per raider than the 25 man versions (so 2 per boss in 10 man, 6-8 per boss in 25man, for example). This will also dissuade more serious 25man groups from breaking up into 10 man raids, as they will be able to gear faster because they chose to bring a larger (and arguably more difficult to manage) group to raid.
Can anyone really imagine Premonition or Paragon switching over to 10 man raiding regardless of the change though? I doubt it.
As a 10man maintankadin in a very small (10 active raid members) and close-knit but progress-oriented guild, I am happy that my choice (and that is what it really is) to raid 10man will not have unnecessary consequences.
@iamapaladin
26 April 2010 at 3:17 pm #
I hear you, I HATED having to worry about doing 25 man normal TOC, then 25 man heroic TOC, then 10 man normal TOC AND 10 man heroic TOC while trying to get 10 man Ulduar HMs down! What a nightmare!
If raid instances are going to be shorter ala TOC with only 5-6 bosses rather than Ulduar/ICC-esque, I hope they put out multiple raid istances since people have gotten used to having lots of bosses and lots of raid id’s to cover in a week.
I definitely loved the intimacy of a 10 man raid though. It is nice raiding with the same 10 people and really getting to know them that way. I still like 25 man raids though. I hope they don’t get completely killed in Cataclysm.
@Rilgon
26 April 2010 at 4:16 pm #
I don’t use AVR, but I’m sure as hell not going to begrudge anyone that uses it.
It’s fucking information. Yes, very exacting and very detailed information, but it’s still just information. It’s still reliant upon the individual raider to understand what the information means, how to react to it, and to do so in a timely manner.
Anyone that considers AVR “cheating” damn well better be running a 100% stock UI, otherwise they’re a hypocritical fuckwit who isn’t worth the server space their pathetic commentary is taking up.
Rilgon Arcsinh’s last blog ..The Death of Naught but Pride
Our raid leader in my 25s guild just required we use AVR. Sometimes, I feel like more of a cheater (shush Ril), but at the same time… that visual timer under people’s feet for necrotic plague? Big red circles of goo on Putricide? Thin radius circle on Princes/other proximity fights? Unf. So amazing. And so brilliant for me–I’m a highly visual and hands-on learner, so seeing trajectories and whatnot is PERFECT for learning (and in the heat of the battle when I sometimes don’t see the person Goo is being chunked at).
Ndiayne’s last blog ..Earth Day! /treedance
Gotta disagree with you buddy. Our guild has way more than 10 good raiders. As it is now we have to rotate for spots in our Sunday 10 man. I would probably never get to raid with Gandy again. 10 man sucks….
I’m a bit torn on the whole situation…
I am ecstatic that I won’t have to run the same raid two, three or four times a week on the same character just to keep progress going. Honestly running the same content multiple times a week feels exhausting.
I enjoy raiding 10 mans a lot, but I often have to sit people I would like to raid with simply due to numbers.
I am a bit concerned as to how we’ll do a conversion though to either way. There are logistical issues on both ends of the spectrum…
Let’s look at common issues that we see right now:
You have 30 people on for Tuesday night. You form a 25 man raid out of that, and on Wednesday you have only 21 people on. What do you do now; if you break it down to a 10 man to try and finish clearing it, you not only exclude more than half of your guild/raiders online, but you also eliminate the possibility of those being able to go back at all. You can no longer break it up into two separate 10 mans to at least allow them to raid as they now all share the same raid ID.
You have 20 people on, and decide to form two 10 mans. The next day you have 27 people online to raid. You no longer can form into a 25 man raid to do content that week at all, as you now have two separate raid IDs, meaning that all of those people can not raid together at all.
The end result though is that if you have 14 or less people who regularly raid and have no attendance issues, this is great. If you have 33 or more people that regularly raid and have no attendance issues, this is great. If you fall somewhere in the middle, this is awful as it forces you from week to week, and even raid to raid to decide exactly what you are going to raid on each week and with who on what settings. If you ever had the frustration of separating a 25 man raid into two balanced 10 mans and sitting people from that, this will magnify it. If you ever had the frustration of trying to merge multiple 10 mans to make a jump into 25 man raiding, or to work on new content in it; this will similarly magnify it.
As a guild leader, I find it hard to find a position to take. Having time to myself, not having to re run various instances on both 10 and 25, having to take sub optimal people for a 25 while benching good players for 10 are all frustrations, and this does nothing to alleviate that. From a leadership position, it’s my responsibility to try and create a good raiding experience for all of those that signed up with the guild to raid; and I don’t know if I will be able to viably do that with the new system. And you want to have a viable guild doing it with due to Cataclysm’s toted guild benefits. Do I do the simpler 10 man route and effectively cut loose those I can’t be actively raid leading? Do I push recruitment to try and get people to do 25s when it will be hard due to the logistical issues? Do I have to maintain a second (Or third) character so that I can effectively lead multiple raids a week in order to assist the guild? Do I just focus on my one character and let the other raids fend for themselves?
These are not easy questions for anyone in a position of guild leadership.
@Anafielle
27 April 2010 at 5:16 pm #
I was going to make a lengthy post here but the commeter above me already put my concerns into words much better than I ever could.
“The end result though is that if you have 14 or less people who regularly raid and have no attendance issues, this is great. If you have 33 or more people that regularly raid and have no attendance issues, this is great. If you fall somewhere in the middle, this is awful as it forces you from week to week, and even raid to raid to decide exactly what you are going to raid on each week and with who on what settings.
“If you ever had the frustration of separating a 25 man raid into two balanced 10 mans and sitting people from that, this will magnify it. If you ever had the frustration of trying to merge multiple 10 mans to make a jump into 25 man raiding, or to work on new content in it; this will similarly magnify it.”
The above paragraph is the best summary of the drama that my guild (which has always fallen squarely into that problematic attendance slot, between 20 and 28ish serious raiders) has always – alwayts experienced. Hell, the worst drama I’ve ever seen has been over 10 man raiding IN ADDITION TO 25 man raiding. Without the choice to do both… well, my guild’s 25 man raiding won’t survive it. I know several other guilds on my server who also won’t survive it.
I don’t understand how those guilds who calmly do 25s sometimes and two 10s sometimes do it.
Sigh…. it’s ok. I’ve always liked 10s better. It’s easier to get 10 people I like and trust together (in my guild) than 25, which always entails taking some less aware people along.
When Cata drops, I’m pretty sure I will be making a terrible choice between giving up 25 man raiding altogether and leaving my guild. It’s not Cata’s fault, or the change’s fault, I just know my guild will stop raiding 25s and that has me pretty depressed.
I guess I can just go complain on twitter more :)
Anafielle’s last blog ..Lich King Blues